I’m just gonna jump to the proposed compromises and then come back to the explanations.
From now on, we would refer to alley-oop unities as savannahs. Big win for the front sav crowd. But as a consolation prize for the ao unity crowd, we would acknowledge that alley-oop unity has also been a legit term in use since the creation of the trick to this day. We would acknowledge that a savannah is an ao unity, the same way a kindgrind is an ao top mizu. And most importantly, we would respectfully acknowledge that these fellow bladers are making a very frustrating concession to finally put an end to this frustrating debate.
THE AO UNITY CROWD:
Alright, now the explanations. I’m gonna start with the ao unity crowd first because you are the ones who would be making the concession and because I am one of you. Why should we be the ones to change? The un-backside savannah crowd are mostly new schoolers who weren’t around (or even born yet!) when the trick was invented. We are the wise old elders sitting around the camp fire dropping knowledge, right? Right. But. Our system makes things more confusing and using their system would make things a little less confusing.
(This is where it gets pretty nerdy and technical. Some of you might wanna just skip to The Front Sav Crowd section below.)
I suggested a while back that for clarity we should limit the usage of “alley-oop” and “true-spin” for spin direction only, not grind direction. I suggested we take Daily Bread’s nearly 30 year old advice and use the term “reverse” if we ever actually need to be that specific. But most of the time we could still abbreviate and say “ao soul” and assume that means “alley-oop 90 degree spin to reverse soul grind” without having to say all that. And with a little bit of math everyone would understand “ao 3 soul” means a forward soul.
So why not just apply that same logic to unities? We could abbreviate and say “ao unity” and assume that means “alley-oop 90 degree spin to reverse unity” without having to say all that.
And “ao back unity” would be like Billy Prislin…
Unless it’s “ao back unity” like Chris Haffey…
Alright, so this would be one of those times we can’t abbreviate, we would have to be more specific, Billy did an “ao 270 back unity.” Wait, they’re both 270, so we would have to be even more specific, Billy did an “ao 270 to reverse back unity.” Would that be the end of the world? No. But that is a mouth full. And their system is simpler. And since half the blade world seems to use their system already…
If nothing else, aren’t we the wise old elders? Shouldn’t we be the mature ones willing to make this sacrifice for the unity of our people?
THE FRONT SAV CROWD:
First of all, chill. I’m suggesting you get your way, so chill. Any stubborn OG blader willing to make this change shouldn’t have to put up with you being a sore winner also.
I know we all live in our echo chambers, but pretending like “alley-oop unity” was never even a thing, doesn’t help your argument. It’s still printed in magazines from the 90’s. It’s still coming out of TV announcers’ mouths on old VHS tapes of competitions. It came out of Jon Julio’s and Brian Shima’s mouths just in the last few years.
The entire basis of this agreement would depend on your willingness to respectfully acknowledge that it was a legit term, even if we’re now moving on from it. I’ve been jokingly referring to my side as “wise old elders” but I honestly think the reason this has dragged on for so long is many people don’t actually engage with us. They just brush us off like we have some kinda OG dementia. We don’t need to be put on a pedestal, just not ignored. I know we can be harsh too. So let’s make that part of the agreement, that we will all show more respect for each other, starting with this compromise.
THE CONCLUSION:
So what do you think? Could this end the debate? Would you be willing to accept the terms of a compromise like this?
First off, respect for acknowledging that the front Savannah side just makes sense and simplifies things. I commend you for presenting a compromise to the Alleyoop-unity folks, just like Roll Minnesota did too.
But the main issue that I don’t think you guys on that side of things don’t recognize is that it’s honestly not a matter of debate, it’s a matter of confusion by not looking at the full scheme of things. The issue is “alleyoop” is a widely misunderstood term. It doesn’t JUST mean spinning in like Daily Bread suggested, they were unfortunately wrong about that. It also doesn’t JUST mean reverse, which a smaller slice of the pie will argue. It means both. Alleyoop is when you spin inwards AND go in backwards. Without those 2, it’s not Alleyoop.
Example:
“with a little bit of math everyone would understand “ao 3 soul” means a forward soul.”
This just doesn’t make sense. What you’re saying is just an inspin 360 soul. Throwing alleyoop in there is confusing abd unnecessary. Unnecessary because we have the term inspin already, and confusing because Alleyoop is how we would know its a soul going in reverse. This is exactly why saying Alleyoop is JUST a spin is undeniably false. Every groove trick that isn’t symmetrical has a different name. It wasn’t voted on or argued about, it’s just the system that fell into place because it works and was the most logical. The ONLY groove trick that anyone tries to slap an Alleyoop on is Unity. You are NEVER backwards on a Unity though. You’re either backside or frontside, not backwards though. It’s always sideways trick.
Then when you talked about the tricks Haffey and Prislin are doing in those gifs, the only thing mucking it up is tossing that AO in there. It’s just 270 back unity & 270 back Savannah(<—-aka the og Savannah). nothing to compromise on there, it's math. There's geometry with our trick structures that unconsciously fell into place because that's what things naturally do. They seek balance, whether we like it or not.
Anyone who's read my rant this far, I hope you are reading this calmly and with an open mind. I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers. My main point I hope people take away from what I'm saying is the issue lies on the fuzzy understanding of alleyoop.
My compromise is this:
There are THREE ways to get to fully backwards tricks. Alleyoop, Truespin, and Zeropsin.
Does not have to necessarily be a grind. It applies to wallrides, rolls, monorolls. Just as long as it's a fully backwards trick. That's why there are a few exceptions to that rule people sometimes say that "you can't alleyoop a groove trick", it's mostly true. There are the few hybrid groove tricks that emulate soul tricks. Tabernacle, Byn soul, Acid Rain, etc. They're not quite frontside or backside. They're both. So they cancel each other out and become either forward or backwards, so they get the alleyoop/truespin/zerospin treatment when backwards because they are FULLY backwards. (They also can't be "topside" obviously, so I'd argue they get the farside treatment when doing the "topside" versions, but that's a less important argument to me, and a totally different discussion)
My final point: just like there are 3 ways to do backwards tricks, there are 3 ways to do groove tricks. Frontside, Backside, and Neutral.
This isn't done very often so it's not thought about much. But it exists, and can't be argued against. You can do any main groove trick all 3 of these ways frontside/neutral/backside.
The side you are doing it from never changes the trick, just the approach.
So if you take a unity, imagine doing it from all 3 approaches. The trick never changes: it's frontside unity, neutral unity, and backside unity.
Now do the same thing with your feet crossed the other way: it's front Savannah, neutral Savannah, and backside Savannah. The spin and the trick never change. Just the approach.
But the Alleyoop Unity people would say it's what? Alleyoop unity, __________________ , and backside alleyoop unity? Truespin backside unity? I don't know, even that side argues about what that would be cause it's an illogical mess. But the real problem is, what would that middle one be? The neutral approach.
The problem that DB was trying to resolve was that we use the term for two completely different things, for both spin direction and grind direction. That’s why there are still OG’s to this day that will say “truespin alley-oop mizou” and not see any problem with that.
Alan, just seeing your reply.
You’re right, that is the issue DB was trying to resolve, and they took the wrong approach unfortunately. Instead of a THIS or THAT approach to the dilemma, they ignored the fact that it WAS both. They didn’t even think about that being an option. It’s a way cleaner term to say alleyoop is a dual term. Especially because we DON’T have any term that means reverse for soul grinds. That is what all 3 (alleyoop/zerospin/truespin) step in and accomplish. Like I said, groove tricks dont need those terms whatsoever. We adopted different names for the opposite direction for every groove trick that needed one. Unity needed one and it IS Savannah.
Yes, “truespin alleyoop mizou” is illogical.
But so is “alleyoop unity”.
It can’t be both, that’s how we ended up with “truespin alley-oop mizu.” Creating a new term “reverse” is the simplest solution.
Disagree. “It can’t be both, that’s how we ended up with “truespin alley-oop mizu.”
Thats not why some people say “truespin Alleyoop”. Yes, it’s wrong, but you need to unpack what they believe they’re saying.
They think Alleyoop means simply going in reverse. And truespin came along after to define alleyoop but the OTHER way. Which would imply that there’s a REGULAR Alleyoop & then there’s truespin alleyoop and zerospin alleyoop. MOST people recognized that flaw and easily understood that truespin is the mirror opposite of alleyoop. So like I said before, frontside backside makes zero sense just the same way truespin alleyoop makes no sense. I think you would agree with that.
To them, truespin is the direction of spin & alleyoop means reverse.
This why I’m saying alleyoop is so misunderstood. You think it’s just a spin when it’s not. Some think it means just going reverse when it’s not.
Not only is it unrealistic to try to get everyone to start saying “reverse”, we also don’t need everyone to start saying it. We have inspin. We have outspin.
When I say it’s “both”, I’m not saying let’s use truespin alleyoop.
Alleyoop means in-spinning into a backwards trick.
Truespin means out-spinning to a backwards trick.
Zerospin means you approach backwards to a backwards trick.
The problem was lack of clarity. That’s why it was getting lumped together. Which is what you’re still doing without realizing.
It’s not a matter of disrespecting history, things were made up day after day as the sport was being created. Mistakes were made, and almost all of them were recognized and corrected.
Originally the pornstar was ONLY done as an alleyoop pornstar. And going forward was known as an acid mizu. Pretty quickly it was realized how dumb that was and they realized it made more sense for it to have its own name. So acid mizu became pornstar. Same way Alleyoop Unity became Savannah. Same reason it became just Acid instead of acid soul.
Like I said: there are 3 ways to get to fully backwards tricks.
Alleyoop, Truespin, and Zerospin.
There are no sideways groove tricks that need these 3 terms. All they need is inspin/outspin & backside/neutral/frontside to explain the trick.
So please, “creating a new term “reverse” is the simplest solution” explain how this is simple or even possible when it’s neither.
BTW, nobody is denying the history of “Alleyoop Unity”. The history obviously exists and will always exist. Nobody is trying to rewrite that. What we mean when we say it never existed as a trick, is that it logically made set sense, like doing a backside frontside or a topside royale. The problem is the OG Savannah (270 backside Savannah) was given a name before it was understood that Unity going the other way WAS a Savannah. It deserves its own name just like every other asymmetrical groove trick. We merely recognized the flaw after the fact, but one side stuck to the OG version while others understood the logic and adopted front Savannah. I’ve been aggressive blading since 96, so it’s not a matter of old school versus new school like some try to push. Or disrespecting elders (I know you’re joking about the elders thing).
It’s a matter of Logical vs illogical. Balanced vs unbalanced. Chaos vs Order.
Imagine if the first Farf was done 270 backside and we argued for 25+ years that was the only actual farvegnugen and all royale going the other way are just Alleyoop royales. Pretty dumb, and easy to see why.
